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In Which, Cowboy R Speaks Up

  • Mar. 4th, 2004 at 10:17 AM
Dream Door

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

--Pastor Martin Niemoller

The First Amendment was designed to protect offensive speech, because nobody ever tries to ban the other kind.

--Mike Godwin


I have long lived with the goal that I shall not be the person Pastor Niemoller speaks of. When I see something that isn't right, I speak up about it. Sometimes forcably; sometimes out of proportion to the offense.

Today, I'd like to talk about the "ban an idiot today" petition that is being circulated on LJ. No, I'm not going to provide the petion, or a link to it... it's probably been on your friends list, and if not... well, I'm not going to strengthen something I'm arguing against by providing a link to it.

I know that the user named in the petition is ficticious. I know that the sample entry is a fake written by someone who thought they were being clever. I know that my reaction is out of scale with what's being presented.

However, I do feel the need to say that, by advocating the removal of the right to express whatever opinion they have, the authors and circulators of this petition are doing something shameful.

Please take a careful look at what I just wrote. I did not say that you should not belittle the style of writing involved. I feel that you shouldn't, but that's not the point. I support your right to do so, just as I support their right to express themselves as they see fit.

What I find shameful is your advocation of removing their expression, your advocation of censoring their expression.

As a veteran of the United States Navy, I made a literal sacrifice to uphold and protect the Constitution of the United States of America. Amendments, duely made, to that document say that all Americans have the right to freedom of speech and of the press. Supreme Court decisions have extended those rights of expression to include all forms of the press, including internet journals.

If you advocate taking away the right of expression from someone you consider an idiot, how can you complain when your right to express yourself is taken away because someone considers you an idiot?

In the words of Monty Python, "Monty Python's Flying Circus has proven to be a singularly effective tool for offending the easily offended. If you're one of those, do us both a favor, and don't watch!"

If you find someone's journal offensive for whatever reason, no one is forcing you to read it. Snicker if you want, snear if you must, but don't even try getting them silenced... or maybe, you'll be the next voice to fall silent.

Comments

[info]dezertsky wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2004 10:22 am (UTC)
(Proud mom, beaming.)

My students just wrote letters to some soldiers in Iraq. We're mailing them to a friend who is over there and he will pass them out.

Before we wrote, we had a discussion of freedom, what it means, what is the price of freedom, etc. They were really good, for 7 and 8 year olds. =)

Your posting is timely, for me. =)
[info]meig wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2004 11:00 am (UTC)
Exactly.
[info]kit_ping wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2004 11:38 am (UTC)
*applauds*
[info]kutsuwamushi wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2004 10:08 pm (UTC)
Until now, I decided not to respond to your objections because there's no way to argue against someone's personal sense of humor. I certainly don't have a problem with you not finding it funny.

However, now you're actually misrepresenting me, and I feel it's time to speak up:

No, I'm not advocating that LiveJournal should prevent idiots from using the service.

I thought that the first person who objected to my entry would do so because they didn't realize it was a joke, even as blatantly parodic as it is -- but you've proven me wrong. You've recognized that it's a joke, yet you still continue to take it as a serious represenation of my beliefs.

This boggles my mind. Seriously. I just can't get my mind around how you can think that making a joke about disconnecting idiots from the internet means that I must really want to do it.

In [info]deoridhe's entry, you made the only objection that I can take seriously: jokes about censorship aren't funny. However, I and many others disagree -- this is bringing us right back to issues of personal taste, which are useless to argue about.

I won't argue the rest of the points of your post, because all of your melodrama aside, on them I agree -- I'm a vociferous advocate for free speech (which doesn't apply on LiveJournal, by the way), which makes this "censuring" of yours an even sadder affair than immediately apparent.
[info]cowboy_r wrote:
Mar. 4th, 2004 10:24 pm (UTC)
I don't think you're getting my point, at all.

I'm not misrepresenting you. You did write a petition which has been presented on other people's journals, advocating the removal of internet priviledges (and thus, self-expression) from those you consider idiots.

You did give an example of the style of writing you consider to be idiotic.

Regardless of whether you intended it as a joke, and regardless of whether I understand that your intent was not as presented, history is full of people who didn't get the joke.

Someone's going to look at what you wrote, and take it at face value. Someone's going to look at what you wrote, and think, "Well, this isn't censorship; after all, they're just morons studying to be idiots, and not studying very hard."

I understand that you don't agree with me, and that's fine. I understand that you think I'm melodramatic, and perhaps you even have some justification in thinking so.

But you can't deny that you wrote what you wrote, and that prima facie it says what I've presented it to say. I can not react to your intent, because as a reader, I do not know your intent. I know only what you wrote.

If it does not reflect your values, perhaps you should be more careful in your writing.
[info]kutsuwamushi wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 01:47 am (UTC)
[Rewritten, reposted for more clarity]

You're misrepresenting me by ascribing intentions to my "petition" that aren't there. You wrote that I'm advocating removing the free speech rights of people I consider to be idiots, when I'm not.

Yes, my entry, if taken literally, is requesting that LiveJournal make it possible for us to disconnect idiots from the internet, which would curtail their speech. However, the entry is an obvious joke. So obvious, in fact, that I think its humor is undermined.

You suggest that I should be more careful with my writing, which I would accept as good advice were it being universally or even just frequently misinterpreted. As it is, you're the only one that I'm aware of who has issues recognizing the joke, which suggests to me that the fault is not with my writing, but with your interpretation of it.

You claim that you don't know my intent, but this is wrong. Because the entry is a satirical joke, it follows that the position it advances isn't seriously held. Its intent, or rather, lack of serious intent, should be as clear as day.

I'm sorry that you felt offended by it, but writing a piece of parody isn't wrong.
[info]painispretty wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 05:36 am (UTC)
Yo, what's wrong with banning people from commenting on your journal? I have a severe dislike of continual, illiterate and abusive posting by my ex-boyfriend, so I banned him. I like to think of it as sticking my fingers in my ears or refusing to answer the phone when he rings, you know?
[info]cowboy_r wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 07:56 am (UTC)
Wrong petition. The one I'm refering to advocates the removal of internet access from those one judges to be an idiot. Which may seem like a good idea on the surface, but....
[info]shoiryu wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 09:45 am (UTC)
The one I'm refering to advocates the removal of internet access from those one judges to be an idiot. Which may seem like a good idea on the surface, but....

But-it-is-not-a-petition. It does not advocate anything. It is a joke.

[info]cowboy_r wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 09:47 am (UTC)
You people keep saying that, and I keep saying that I'm not laughing.
[info]shoiryu wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 09:51 am (UTC)
We don't care if you don't think it's funny. Just quite frickin' calling it a petition, dude. It makes you look pretty stupid.
[info]cowboy_r wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 09:56 am (UTC)
And your insistance that I use a term other than what is written on it shows you to be a low-grade moron. Now that we've insulted each other some more, are you happy? Did you get what you wanted?

[info]shoiryu wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 10:08 am (UTC)
Maybe YOU need to have your internet disconnected, man. ^_~ Go dunk your head in some cold water or something, I bet you'll feel loads better!
[info]cowboy_r wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 10:10 am (UTC)
Ah, there's nothing like mature and intellegent discussion of the issues involved. Thank you so much for making my point.
[info]shoiryu wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 10:25 am (UTC)
Hee. Large and pompous words do not an intelligent man make. A sense of humor, though, is far more valuable thing.
[info]slippery_fish wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 11:26 am (UTC)
Uhm...that doesn't make it less a joke. It just makes it a joke that doesn't work for you.

You keep saying that [info]ladybirdsleeps is advocating the removal of idiots from the net. Isn't advocating something you have to actively do? With intention? Well, she is joking. Simple as that. You think it's not funny but that doesn't change the fact that it's a joke and not meant seriously.

It's not a real petition, even if it's written on it. Satire and parody tend to work that way. And writing a name on a thing doesn't turn it into that. A desk doesn't turn into a chair when you write "chair" on it (I know, this example is a bit...overdone but I think it's expressing what I want to say), a joke doesn't turn into a real petition because it's written on it. It has to be meant that way. And in this case it isn't.

Sure, people could misunderstand that, but well, that is the case in every moment of our life.
[info]iczer6 wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 12:46 pm (UTC)
Popping in from elsewhere
I shouldn't chime in here but...

Okay you didn't find it funny. Fine, I didn't think it a knee-slapper myself.

However what you don't get is that they aren't trying to do anything.

Hell what the petition is about is physically impossible anyway. A

AFAIK there is no way to actually stop someone from getting online or posting, unless you somehow develop psychic powers and use them to short out all their electronic equipment.

You're basically freaking out about something that logically couldn't happen.

And if you don't like the meme you don't have to post it on your journal.
[info]painispretty wrote:
Mar. 7th, 2004 02:23 pm (UTC)
I did read it. I was under the impression that it was a joke, or an expression of frustration at the large number of idiots cluttering up LJ, rather than a serious proposal.
[info]ari_ wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 07:11 am (UTC)
Er.

I'm not American, but AFAIK, the constitution protects the right of free speech *from the government*.

LJ is a business, and if they want to censor people left and right, they're free to do that. Mind you, it would not be good business practice, but it'd not be a violation of the consitution.
[info]deoridhe wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 07:56 am (UTC)
Free speech
I think the heart of his argument is more that those who hold free speech as an ideal for all people should practice it in all aspects of their life, not that the first amendment should be applied everywhere.

For example - I'm a free speech maeven, so I don't delete posts in my livejournal even if they're criticizing me, nor do I keep anonymous posters from posting. The one exception was that Passion spambot, and I thought for a bit about leaving it simply because I have a personal no-deletion policy.

So in that way, I'm living up to my ideal of free speech - anyone can say anything they want and I won't censor it where I have control of such things - however I will criticize if I disagree. The response to free speech one disagrees with is ...free speech. 8)

Of course, I am also prone to mocking, so I started this whole thing by posting a parody petition... and I stand by the original post being hysterically funny. I also have a policy of holding my beliefs as lightly as possible, as beliefs often stand of faulty ground. I try to make it so my beliefs can be well-questioned semi-regularly (though I also try to allow for the irrational emotional response of *threat* to well-held beliefs being questioned; feelings are feelings and should be respected and honored).
[info]launcher wrote:
Mar. 5th, 2004 02:14 pm (UTC)
В клинику вас всех сдать,
гадоперидоломъ подколоть.
[info]fallen_x_ashes wrote:
Mar. 9th, 2004 01:09 am (UTC)
Your stand on this issue
Has me looking at you with admiration. I think we might just have a few things in common, seeing as we both view this meme as incredibly moronic and apalling.

I'd like to get to know you better, so shall we friend eachother?

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Dream Door
[info]cowboy_r
Wishing for Wings That Work

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